5 Questions #7: Pawo Choyning Dorji
The director of Oscar shortlisted THE MONK AND THE GUN and the nominated LUNANA: A YAK IN THE CLASSROOM
Although I think one of the five core things we ask of cinema is that it take us somewhere we’ve never been before, there are few artists who manage to do this with the sort of authenticity that instantly earns our trust and confidence, let alone do it with every movie they’ve made. Pawo Chorying Dorji has delivered in both of his features to date, and appears to be well on his way to being able to maintain it through what we all should hope to be a long and fruitful career. One of the benefits I have had of making movies in the time and place I did, from the position I’ve enjoyed, is it that by no longer taking that for granted, it is all the more remarkable when I witness those of us who have overcome large obstacles to have their work recognized by others. Pawo’s first feature was also the first film from Bhutan to be nominated from an Oscar, and that’s just a beat towards the end of that story; getting there was something far more challenging. He shares that and more below.
Where are the hinge moments in your life? In your career? What were those moments that you can see a clear before and a clear after? Where things were never going to be the same once you took that step?
This has to be in 2018 when I decided to make the plunge to become a filmmaker by making ‘Lunana: A Yak in the Classroom’. I had been considering the decision to make the film for many months prior, but I was always worried about the logistically challenges in making such a film. This was going to be my directorial debut, but I was so persistent on shooting the film at the actual location of Lunana, a location that is one of the remotest human settlements in the world. A location that was only accessible by a 14-day trek over the highest mountains in the world, so remote from modernization that the film would have to be made only on solar batteries and we would have a cast of first timers who had not only not acted in films before but who had not even watched a film in their lives. These people had not even seen a light bulb in their lives! Many people questioned if this could even be done, and some even tried to talk me out of this but I believed this story had to be made and I wanted everyone involved with the film, the crew, the cast, and myself to go through this journey and make the film at the actual location so that the authenticity of the story could come through.
‘Lunana: A Yak in the Classroom’ has had the most amazing of journeys. Making a film in the remotest classroom in the world with solar batteries and a 500 kg yak as my only company, to the Dolby theatre in Hollywood as Bhutan’s first ever Oscar Nominee! It’s been a humbling experience, and I am also grateful to all the individuals who decided to take a chance on me and my film to make this all a possibility.
In Bhutanese culture, to tell a story is such an important part of our culture. So important that we don’t even have a word for ‘story telling’. When we ask someone to ‘tell us a story’, we ask them to please ‘untie a knot’. The act of telling a story is supposed to have that higher purpose, it is supposed to untie, to free, to liberate. The whole experience I had when I decided to make ‘Lunana: A Yak in the Classroom’, from the hardships, to the doubts, to the global success the film has enjoyed, has affirmed my wish to be an ‘untier of knots’.
What is your dream project, whether it got away or has yet to be launched?
As a lover of history and travel, I have always been fascinated by Xuanzang’s ‘Journey to the West’ in the 7th century. Before I became a filmmaker, I retraced his epic journey from China to India, a journey which took him 18 years. With all the modern conveniences, I was able to do it in 5 years. Through the journey, I crossed the Gobi and Taklamakan deserts of Xinjiang, I climbed the highest mountains known to man; the Hindukush in Afghanistan, the Karakoram in Pakistan and the Himalayas in Nepal and India. I traveled across the tropical plans of India, and into the pearl of the Indian ocean, Sri Lanka.
The travels taught me so much about the people and stories that bind them to their culture and spiritual beliefs, but it also connected me with the spirit of Xuanzang, and that the human spirit of determination.
I always felt that the story of Xuanzang could be an amazing visual film that could appeal to the global audience. This is definitely my dream project. There have been different versions of the story that’s already been adapted, but I feel they lack the authenticity that is true to Xuanzang’s legacy. A true film about Xuanzang needs to connect the audience with heart of Xuanzang, a celebration of the human will never to give up.
What is the best advice you have received from another filmmaker?
During ‘Lunana: A Yak in the Classroom’’s Oscar run in 2021, I was very fortunate to get the support of Ang Lee. Ang Lee has always been a huge inspiration for me, we also shared the Taiwan connection. He is Taiwanese, while I live in Taiwan. Ang was kind enough to support the film, and we had a ‘in conversation with’ to help boost the film as it entered the voting period.
Towards the end of our conversation, Ang told me something very profound. He told me “Pawo, when I see your film, I can tell that you tell stories with a heart of innocence. This reminds me of myself when I first started making films. I used to make films with that innocence as well, but in this industry, they expect you to shed away innocence. Over the course of the last few decades, I have had a successful career as a film director, and yes, I may have won many awards, but I also realize that I have lost that heart of innocence. I now an old man trying to reconnect with that innocence he once had, but it’s very difficult to reconnect with it once you have lost it. We all know that you will continue to make movies and tell stories, and if I were to give you one advice, I would tell you to never lose that heart of innocence, I hope you can carry that heart of Lunana with very film you make”.
I think coming off the journey I had with my first film, I could have easily gotten carried away with the attention. Ang Lee’s advice, which I keep to my heart even now, really helped me stay grounded. Sometimes in your quest to achieve something you think you want; you end up losing something that you precious you have.
Ang’s advice really helped me as I worked on my new film ‘The Monk and the Gun’, which is actually about the loss of innocence of Bhutan as we modernization as a nation.
What can you do to grow and evolve as an artist?
In Bhutan we say that a rainbow is created is when different causes and conditions come together. Rain drops, sunlight, coming together at a certain angle creating the most beautiful of lights. So vivid, so real, yet so transitory in existence. Yet it is the transitory of its existence, that makes us appreciate the beauty of the rainbow even more. We Bhutanese say that everything in life is like the rainbow, the coming together of causes and conditions to create something real yet so fleeting, and in its transitoriness is where we find true appreciation for life.
I think we artists we must always try and develop an understanding of the transitory nature of everything in life. We also have to develop a wider understanding of how relative time is. Developing these understandings can drastically shape our perspectives on the possibilities of creating. Our mind can become free and limitless, and when that happens, our creations can also become limitless.
What would you tell your younger self about the creative process and how to order your steps?
I have had a somewhat successful start to my career as a filmmaker. I have made only two films; one was an Oscar nominee and the second currently is an Oscar shortlist. While many might see the success I have enjoyed, they may not be aware of the failures and rejections I have gone through.
After I had made ‘Lunana: A Yak in the Classroom’, I had submitted the film to many different film festivals, only to be rejected by all of them. The film also did not gain any traction in the distribution side. The initial 6 months of the film’s life were all rejections. When you work that hard to make a film, only to be faced by rejections, it can be quite demoralizing. You start to question and doubt if this is indeed what you wish to pursue.
I think being an artist is a very tough profession. You work so hard to create something you are so passionate about, and once you have create it, you put it out there for it to be judged. I would tell my younger self that failure and rejections are foundation parts of the creative journey, and that without failure, we can never truly appreciate the success. Filmmaking is such a subjective form of art, and that is what makes it so beautiful and joyful.
Pawo Choyning Dorji is a filmmaker from the Himalayan Kingdom of Bhutan. His directorial debut ‘Lunana: A Yak in the Classroom’, made history as the first Bhutanese film to earn an Oscar nomination when it was nominated for Best International Feature for the 94th Academy Awards. His second film ‘The Monk and the Gun’ had its World Premiere at the 50th Telluride Film Festival. The film is currently shortlisted for Best International Feature for the 96th Academy Awards.
Pawo is the youngest recipient of the Druk Thuksey Award (the Royal Order of Bhutan), the highest civilian award in Bhutan, awarded to individuals for distinguished service to the nation and people of Bhutan.
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and if you are digging these 5 Questions posts and want to catch up on others I’ve done:
Joe Brewster & Michèle Stephenson 12/11/23
Roger Ross Williams 12/15/23
Matthew Heineman 12/18/23
Nicole Holofcener 12/22/23
Chris Zalla 12/27/23
I don't believe it takes money to make movies, it takes talent with passion and a dream, but yes, it takes marketing, influential support, and politics to enter, and win competitions. I do not consider myself an artist, but I have many important stories to tell. I must tell those stories and I wish to touch the world with them. Awards and contests are not important to me, but getting important stories out to the world is important. I am not the only person who wants to tell or is telling these types of stories. I want to work with those who have similar goals as myself. There is power in numbers, a power that money cannot control.
The one thing he doesn't discuss, which in my opinion is the biggest challenge in getting a feature film off the ground, is how did he raise the money? No doubt a film with that kind of logistical challenge costs money, no matter how you look at it. It certainly could not have been a no budget film with one location, two actors, etc, etc. Did Ang Lee put up the money? Did Mr. Dorji get a government support? And with the 6 months of rejections from festivals after finishing the film that he mentions, how on earth did he get it up to Oscar status? Did he have an agent or representation like it seems we here in the U.S. have to have? Once again, did Ang Lee get behind it? If so, this brings forth an important fact. Something that seems to be lacking in the US film industry. We aspiring struggling filmmakers here, no matter what age, need some of our established star directors or producers to pay it forward and give us a shot like Ang Lee seems to have done for Mr. Dorji. We can't do it alone.