Wellllll, okay, hold up. About your poll: I used to rate and review movies religiously across IMDb, Amazon, a place called Movielens that I believe still exists but was once a research project run by the University of Minnesota, and on Mubi back when it was a film discussion board and not a streaming service. I assembled over 1000 movie reviews and even considered self-publishing them into a book before I got busy and lost interest (I wouldn't even try assembling such a book today because I've basically forgotten most of the movies I watched, go figure).
But today I clicked "I rarely do" and that's because I don't think the Yelp-ification of movies is a meaningful use of my time anymore. I even looked into Letterboxd and immediately got just exhausted by the number of amateur comedians attempting to create the funniest hot take to whatever A24 movie is now in the docket (no shade against the actual movies themselves).
I think what you're saying about talking about film in public, person-to-person conversation is very real. There aren't even discussion boards anymore. Honestly the closest I get to a real good online film discussion community is the Incredibly Strange Films group on Facebook, that set knows what's up, but like you mentioned, I don't use Facebook much anymore, it's now relegated to a quick check on Saturday mornings to see if I've been invited to any events or if anyone's messed with my profile or something.
I do post Movie Recommendations to my Substack that are explicitly not reviews or film criticism, they're sincere attempts to get people excited about a movie I really loved. I don't have a whole lot of reach, but probably higher than I have in the day to day life. The problem is that working in film, means when you start recommending movies in conversation you then in turn get a dozen recommendations back, and before you know it everyone has a list of hundreds of movies they simply can't keep on top of. My actually written down recommended-to-me list is literally over 700 movies, I've kept it for years :) .
Anyway so in your post I see two different things: people talking about movies and then people adding their data and metrics (dollar votes) to the movie social media of places like IMDb or LetterBoxd. These are not the same thing. I would argue the latter is one part of what depresses the former, we can't have an honest discussion about movies we enjoy because people are just looking for what movie can give them the best punchline for likes and shares.
Dane, I am with you. Maybe it was confusing to place the poll on the end. This post was only intended to get people to talk more about moves -- and the talk IRL kind of talk. The problem you describe of online reviews is right on. It is the problem of most online communication. It's funny what you say of your hesitancy to grow any list too; my To Watch exceeds my Life Expectancy if I was able to maintain my Maximum Rate Of Consumption. For me, that gives me peace of mind though, because it means I am never going to run out of things that will delight me.
Totally agreed. One of my "If money were no object" ideas would be to just buy a copy of every book, movie, album etc. that crosses my fancy regardless of whether I get around to it, just to have it available in case I could, with the knowledge that the amount of content exceeds life expectancy.
We have a wall of unread books in our house. Whenever I start to panic that cinema may die or the world will flip authoritarian, I just stare at the wall until my breathing calms. At least I can go find a cave and enjoy my books, nuts, and berries until the world ends.
That's it Ted. You have the tiger by the long thin balancing mechanism. Everyone is soooooo obsessed with being smart and not having their (as if Zeitgeist didn't exist) ideas stolen. Yes, sometimes we let emotions rule rather than the three-dimensional thinking nuthouse called our world and yes, some folks are short on creativity and long on the unscrupulous but let her rip I say. More fun, exhilarating, honest and true rather shadow cultivation of quiet or overt superiority. Speaking of which just reached out to filmmaker Lisa Landers after reading about her film GIANTS RISING at DocLands at the Rafael Film Center outside San Francisco. She responded and I am advocating for her picture that is an unusual blend of both the science & spirituality of the redwoods. Check out her website here as it is literally is opening a new world of creative possibilities as a result of advocating for this picture which I dig due to its subject matter and perennial awe of the tree beings. Thanks for laying it down again! ~ JC www.giantsrising.com
Here's a tiny bit of hope for Hope... I do have a group of friends (who aren’t in the biz) who talk weekly about films. And another friend, Nicole Dreiske who’s devoted the last 20 years of her life to educating adults on how to watch tv/films/media with their kids, Screen Smarts for Kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ac007_-wtc, because it is so important, as Ted pointed out, to “teach the kiddies to live a bit more. To engage in this world. To rejoice in the feels and wonder.” And there is no better way of doing that then when watching the world on a screen with other human beings, and the questions and topics that come up when you do this with children are incredible, the conversations you will have are nothing short of transformative! I’m a producer of kid’s content and couldn’t agree more with how vital it is, especially in this age of ‘phones’, to engage children with quality entertainment- the arts, all ARTS- that show the beauty in this world of ours, (that does exist, it’s just not easy sometimes to see) and how remarkable and glorious it is to explore, play, make new friendships, be more self-confidence and find lasting fulfilling purpose in our world….You know, the kind of kid’s entertainment, when done right, it’s not only for kids but adults who’ve forgotten how incredible it is to be a kid- to be curious, eager, open and ready for fun, ready for anything! And in our beloved industry children’s entertainment is (and even more so now than ever before) the lowest hanging fruit, but that’s another comment to another article. ;) AND I couldn’t leave without shamelessly plugging Tumble Leaf on Amazon Prime or:
Though I fall through the cracks of your poll (I do review movies on occasion in my place on Scriptmag.com though I'm predominantly a columnist,) I did use my Facebook page to do something I rarely do this week, prod people into going to see THE BIKERIDERS this opening weekend. And I am pleased with the responses I got from my friends and followers. Some said they saw the film solely on my request and loved it. Word of mouth has a huge advantage going for it in promoting good cinema, it depends on someone you know and respect sharing their perspective on a movie.
I'd love to see more opportunities for WOM in the wild. Here's a free idea for Art houses to help facilitate. Inspired by the revitalization of art house cinema near me, I propose either instituting or partnering with near by food/drink businesses, having an "Afterthought" movement where you get a discount upon showing the ticket stub of a movie you just saw with the stipulation that you sit and talk about the film with others. You can have groups seeing the movie together purposely having convo over a meal or a pint, strangers knowing the subject matter interjecting their thoughts on their just shared experience. Win win win win win. Let's start the Afterthought Movie Movement across the country and world. WOM with Nom-nom!
Love it Christopher. Having just held after-screening Q&A's for INVISIBLE NATION all weekend, had we had a place to sell snacks and drinks afterwards, someone would have made a bundle, even with a discount!
I saw "Invisible Nation" last night at the Laemmle Royal and yes the discussion afterward was very interesting and important. Christopher, we have to implement something like you are talking about for independent films.
I think part of the problem is people are missing a shared experience to feed the "watercooler" moment.
People aren't watching the same shows, the same movies and have become out of sync and don't build up the habit of discussing the show/movies they watched. There's no weekly Seinfeld, X-files, Twin Peaks etc.
Everyone is having their niche catered to and they suck up all they can in that silo, and might discuss it with other fans online.
I love Peter Greenaway movies, but you can't really bring him up in casual conversation. Even in non-casual conversations people look at you crossed eyed for bringing up a filmmaker they haven't heard of.
This is my observation too. The supply towards niches to some extent stands in the way of common experience. The more divided the audience, the less they share. And it has a trickling effect... In my town there are 2 art house theaters, each with 5 screens. Whereas 20 years ago they would rotate maybe 8 movies for a week, now one of them is playing 17, the other 21. Some films just have 3 or 4 showtimes in a week. Even if I'm interested, I often miss a film simply due to scheduling. And while I have quite a number of movie-loving friends, more and more we each have our own tastes and end up going to different films. We can of course share what we have loved, but there is less and less to have a conversation about, a true back-and-forth.
It's so contradictory--I want to be able to praise that so many small films find a screen. Yet it's diminished an important aspect of the experience.
And there's no going back, is there? Catering to niches is one of the internet's greatest strengths. Our appetite for our passions gets sated online in ways that it often can't offline, and so it's reset our expectations. Somehow we need to find a new balance. Maybe social media really is dying and will leave a space of opportunity.
Spot on. There's also the issue that watercooler conversations are becoming rare because of the rarity of watercooler hangout opportunities. It's just not the same on Zoom or Slack.
People don't socialize as much anymore, preferring to stare at their screens rather than talk to the person next to them on a train or at an airport bar. However, I remain hopeful. "Third places"—locations that are neither home nor work—are making a comeback, providing much-needed community and opportunity to have real conversations with real people.
Some theatres, for example, are being revitalized with gastropubs and bars where people can hang out and chat after screenings. New generations are discovering theaters as sanctuaries where they can focus on one screen and block out distractions. Maybe all is not lost... and the more stuff is out there, the more people will rely on WOM again.
You are right, Patrick, and it is particularly hard with niche films. If we ever are on line together though, let's be sure to talk Greenaway. I was very happy to arrive in the big city when those films played on a big screen!
For years I used Facebook to microblog about movies, posting about every film I had seen and doing a top 10 countdown at the end of the year which many looked forward to. I got sick of Facebook - the format, the algorithm, the adverts, the increasing lack of interaction. And THAT'S why I came to Substack, to do more than just microblog and to hopefully reach out to a bigger audience. Because I love talking (and writing) about films and believe it's half the pleasure of movie-going/watching. Thank you for this article, insightful and worrying indeed but a good call to arms!
In the discussion after "Invisible Nation" last night Vanessa mentioned that even though she spent over 7 and half years working on this story about the political situation in Taiwan, she is more concerned right now about the political situation in the U.S. I have a film that treats what is going on in the U.S. right now and would love your feedback on it. It's called "Lee'd The Way," the story of Patrick Lee who is legally blind and autistic, the perfect candidate for President of the United States. Yes, very timely, and open for discussion. www.leedthewaymovie.com
I used to watch a lot more films than I do now. In fact, for 11 years I produced a TV Show called "Hollywood On Scene" where we reviewed the films that Siskel and Ebert didn't touch. Of course, some of them were pretty bad, but once in a while we reviewed a gem, like "El Mariachi" and we became affectionately known as "The Buzz of the B's." We even interviewed some of these independent filmmakers, which helped them get a following. I am presently in the process of reactivating the show, a bit modernized and with some young hosts. Any of you that would like to be involved, please let me know.
Talk is cheap while "the price of action is colossal." "The world is too much with us, late and soon."
You say don't make a movie unless you have a part of the budget set away for marketing. I want to talk about my movie. Set to shoot in Sept. It got a 9 of 10 in originality Greenlight AI coverage. Everyone who's read the script wants to be a part. I can get it financed but the financiers want 90% of the profit. With an extra couple of hundred k I can make it but it is so hard - I can't at this time come up with the money to attach top actors and market it too. I can't get thru the fortress of angents and managers to the actors who'd make it a hit. I need to discover new ones. Its so funny and so original and I'm getting so old I need the only way seems to be to raise a very hard few hundred k to make the movie or it won't get made, at least in my own beautiful vision. So while I agree with you, I cant get there from here.
I feel for you Rich and I am sorry my duplicator is not working. I can't be of more help than writing this newsletter at the moment -- although I am working on some industry fixes/improvements but those are just baby steps. That said, I think any investor who is looking to take 90% of the profits is telling you they are not interested in treating you right --- and that is probably the first indication of such behavior that will be more habitual the longer you remain with them. That said, most movies never make profit so... there's that too.
Rich, I think that is the reason people are joining our studio. We really help them get their babies born. You did a good little pitch there, without giving the basic storyline or hooks, just your commitment and passion. Getting it made is one thing, getting it sold and out there is another.
Word of mouth is still happening in person. Social media is a very toxic place to share your views about a movie. There are places on social media where you will get yourself called a misogynist or a racist because you dislike a movie. Who wants to share their opinions on films if it's going to result in a social media pile-on and a series of calls to employers demanding that the -ist be fired?
We no longer live in a culture where it is safe to voice opinions disagreeing with the consensus view. You now jeopardize your livelihood and your reputation by voicing your taste in films. Who thinks it's worth becoming unemployed and homeless to dissent from a mob's views about a movie?
Hear you SRP, but also as someone who does speak his mind about things, I find that if you try to demonstrate your ability to see multiple perspectives, particularly the filmmakers' intent, people will still engage in a positive manner.
If you make a real solution film, you can bring both sides together, even if you treat the subjects of politics or religion. We made a political film using a cast and crew from the far-right all the way to the far-left, and somehow it all came together.
Let's do a tshirt together that says, "SEEN ANY GOOD MOVIES LATELY?"
Love it!
Great idea to start a conversation.
Wellllll, okay, hold up. About your poll: I used to rate and review movies religiously across IMDb, Amazon, a place called Movielens that I believe still exists but was once a research project run by the University of Minnesota, and on Mubi back when it was a film discussion board and not a streaming service. I assembled over 1000 movie reviews and even considered self-publishing them into a book before I got busy and lost interest (I wouldn't even try assembling such a book today because I've basically forgotten most of the movies I watched, go figure).
But today I clicked "I rarely do" and that's because I don't think the Yelp-ification of movies is a meaningful use of my time anymore. I even looked into Letterboxd and immediately got just exhausted by the number of amateur comedians attempting to create the funniest hot take to whatever A24 movie is now in the docket (no shade against the actual movies themselves).
I think what you're saying about talking about film in public, person-to-person conversation is very real. There aren't even discussion boards anymore. Honestly the closest I get to a real good online film discussion community is the Incredibly Strange Films group on Facebook, that set knows what's up, but like you mentioned, I don't use Facebook much anymore, it's now relegated to a quick check on Saturday mornings to see if I've been invited to any events or if anyone's messed with my profile or something.
I do post Movie Recommendations to my Substack that are explicitly not reviews or film criticism, they're sincere attempts to get people excited about a movie I really loved. I don't have a whole lot of reach, but probably higher than I have in the day to day life. The problem is that working in film, means when you start recommending movies in conversation you then in turn get a dozen recommendations back, and before you know it everyone has a list of hundreds of movies they simply can't keep on top of. My actually written down recommended-to-me list is literally over 700 movies, I've kept it for years :) .
Anyway so in your post I see two different things: people talking about movies and then people adding their data and metrics (dollar votes) to the movie social media of places like IMDb or LetterBoxd. These are not the same thing. I would argue the latter is one part of what depresses the former, we can't have an honest discussion about movies we enjoy because people are just looking for what movie can give them the best punchline for likes and shares.
Dane, I am with you. Maybe it was confusing to place the poll on the end. This post was only intended to get people to talk more about moves -- and the talk IRL kind of talk. The problem you describe of online reviews is right on. It is the problem of most online communication. It's funny what you say of your hesitancy to grow any list too; my To Watch exceeds my Life Expectancy if I was able to maintain my Maximum Rate Of Consumption. For me, that gives me peace of mind though, because it means I am never going to run out of things that will delight me.
Totally agreed. One of my "If money were no object" ideas would be to just buy a copy of every book, movie, album etc. that crosses my fancy regardless of whether I get around to it, just to have it available in case I could, with the knowledge that the amount of content exceeds life expectancy.
We have a wall of unread books in our house. Whenever I start to panic that cinema may die or the world will flip authoritarian, I just stare at the wall until my breathing calms. At least I can go find a cave and enjoy my books, nuts, and berries until the world ends.
That's it Ted. You have the tiger by the long thin balancing mechanism. Everyone is soooooo obsessed with being smart and not having their (as if Zeitgeist didn't exist) ideas stolen. Yes, sometimes we let emotions rule rather than the three-dimensional thinking nuthouse called our world and yes, some folks are short on creativity and long on the unscrupulous but let her rip I say. More fun, exhilarating, honest and true rather shadow cultivation of quiet or overt superiority. Speaking of which just reached out to filmmaker Lisa Landers after reading about her film GIANTS RISING at DocLands at the Rafael Film Center outside San Francisco. She responded and I am advocating for her picture that is an unusual blend of both the science & spirituality of the redwoods. Check out her website here as it is literally is opening a new world of creative possibilities as a result of advocating for this picture which I dig due to its subject matter and perennial awe of the tree beings. Thanks for laying it down again! ~ JC www.giantsrising.com
“Wild Child” by Lou Reed from his self-titled first album after leaving The Velvet Underground.
https://youtu.be/sgfZHn-GWL0?si=ck8a4aNSTEQNU9v5
Here's a tiny bit of hope for Hope... I do have a group of friends (who aren’t in the biz) who talk weekly about films. And another friend, Nicole Dreiske who’s devoted the last 20 years of her life to educating adults on how to watch tv/films/media with their kids, Screen Smarts for Kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ac007_-wtc, because it is so important, as Ted pointed out, to “teach the kiddies to live a bit more. To engage in this world. To rejoice in the feels and wonder.” And there is no better way of doing that then when watching the world on a screen with other human beings, and the questions and topics that come up when you do this with children are incredible, the conversations you will have are nothing short of transformative! I’m a producer of kid’s content and couldn’t agree more with how vital it is, especially in this age of ‘phones’, to engage children with quality entertainment- the arts, all ARTS- that show the beauty in this world of ours, (that does exist, it’s just not easy sometimes to see) and how remarkable and glorious it is to explore, play, make new friendships, be more self-confidence and find lasting fulfilling purpose in our world….You know, the kind of kid’s entertainment, when done right, it’s not only for kids but adults who’ve forgotten how incredible it is to be a kid- to be curious, eager, open and ready for fun, ready for anything! And in our beloved industry children’s entertainment is (and even more so now than ever before) the lowest hanging fruit, but that’s another comment to another article. ;) AND I couldn’t leave without shamelessly plugging Tumble Leaf on Amazon Prime or:
https://www.youtube.com/@tumbleleaf and https://www.tumbleleaf.tv/
p.s. Love every cent spent on subscribing to your 'Hope For Film' Ted, thank you!!!
Thanks so much Kelli. And thanks for sharing all that. It is so needed. All of it.
Though I fall through the cracks of your poll (I do review movies on occasion in my place on Scriptmag.com though I'm predominantly a columnist,) I did use my Facebook page to do something I rarely do this week, prod people into going to see THE BIKERIDERS this opening weekend. And I am pleased with the responses I got from my friends and followers. Some said they saw the film solely on my request and loved it. Word of mouth has a huge advantage going for it in promoting good cinema, it depends on someone you know and respect sharing their perspective on a movie.
I'd love to see more opportunities for WOM in the wild. Here's a free idea for Art houses to help facilitate. Inspired by the revitalization of art house cinema near me, I propose either instituting or partnering with near by food/drink businesses, having an "Afterthought" movement where you get a discount upon showing the ticket stub of a movie you just saw with the stipulation that you sit and talk about the film with others. You can have groups seeing the movie together purposely having convo over a meal or a pint, strangers knowing the subject matter interjecting their thoughts on their just shared experience. Win win win win win. Let's start the Afterthought Movie Movement across the country and world. WOM with Nom-nom!
Love it Christopher. Having just held after-screening Q&A's for INVISIBLE NATION all weekend, had we had a place to sell snacks and drinks afterwards, someone would have made a bundle, even with a discount!
I saw "Invisible Nation" last night at the Laemmle Royal and yes the discussion afterward was very interesting and important. Christopher, we have to implement something like you are talking about for independent films.
I think part of the problem is people are missing a shared experience to feed the "watercooler" moment.
People aren't watching the same shows, the same movies and have become out of sync and don't build up the habit of discussing the show/movies they watched. There's no weekly Seinfeld, X-files, Twin Peaks etc.
Everyone is having their niche catered to and they suck up all they can in that silo, and might discuss it with other fans online.
I love Peter Greenaway movies, but you can't really bring him up in casual conversation. Even in non-casual conversations people look at you crossed eyed for bringing up a filmmaker they haven't heard of.
This is my observation too. The supply towards niches to some extent stands in the way of common experience. The more divided the audience, the less they share. And it has a trickling effect... In my town there are 2 art house theaters, each with 5 screens. Whereas 20 years ago they would rotate maybe 8 movies for a week, now one of them is playing 17, the other 21. Some films just have 3 or 4 showtimes in a week. Even if I'm interested, I often miss a film simply due to scheduling. And while I have quite a number of movie-loving friends, more and more we each have our own tastes and end up going to different films. We can of course share what we have loved, but there is less and less to have a conversation about, a true back-and-forth.
It's so contradictory--I want to be able to praise that so many small films find a screen. Yet it's diminished an important aspect of the experience.
And there's no going back, is there? Catering to niches is one of the internet's greatest strengths. Our appetite for our passions gets sated online in ways that it often can't offline, and so it's reset our expectations. Somehow we need to find a new balance. Maybe social media really is dying and will leave a space of opportunity.
Spot on. There's also the issue that watercooler conversations are becoming rare because of the rarity of watercooler hangout opportunities. It's just not the same on Zoom or Slack.
People don't socialize as much anymore, preferring to stare at their screens rather than talk to the person next to them on a train or at an airport bar. However, I remain hopeful. "Third places"—locations that are neither home nor work—are making a comeback, providing much-needed community and opportunity to have real conversations with real people.
Some theatres, for example, are being revitalized with gastropubs and bars where people can hang out and chat after screenings. New generations are discovering theaters as sanctuaries where they can focus on one screen and block out distractions. Maybe all is not lost... and the more stuff is out there, the more people will rely on WOM again.
You are right, Patrick, and it is particularly hard with niche films. If we ever are on line together though, let's be sure to talk Greenaway. I was very happy to arrive in the big city when those films played on a big screen!
For years I used Facebook to microblog about movies, posting about every film I had seen and doing a top 10 countdown at the end of the year which many looked forward to. I got sick of Facebook - the format, the algorithm, the adverts, the increasing lack of interaction. And THAT'S why I came to Substack, to do more than just microblog and to hopefully reach out to a bigger audience. Because I love talking (and writing) about films and believe it's half the pleasure of movie-going/watching. Thank you for this article, insightful and worrying indeed but a good call to arms!
In the discussion after "Invisible Nation" last night Vanessa mentioned that even though she spent over 7 and half years working on this story about the political situation in Taiwan, she is more concerned right now about the political situation in the U.S. I have a film that treats what is going on in the U.S. right now and would love your feedback on it. It's called "Lee'd The Way," the story of Patrick Lee who is legally blind and autistic, the perfect candidate for President of the United States. Yes, very timely, and open for discussion. www.leedthewaymovie.com
It's on my list!
I used to watch a lot more films than I do now. In fact, for 11 years I produced a TV Show called "Hollywood On Scene" where we reviewed the films that Siskel and Ebert didn't touch. Of course, some of them were pretty bad, but once in a while we reviewed a gem, like "El Mariachi" and we became affectionately known as "The Buzz of the B's." We even interviewed some of these independent filmmakers, which helped them get a following. I am presently in the process of reactivating the show, a bit modernized and with some young hosts. Any of you that would like to be involved, please let me know.
Talk is cheap while "the price of action is colossal." "The world is too much with us, late and soon."
You say don't make a movie unless you have a part of the budget set away for marketing. I want to talk about my movie. Set to shoot in Sept. It got a 9 of 10 in originality Greenlight AI coverage. Everyone who's read the script wants to be a part. I can get it financed but the financiers want 90% of the profit. With an extra couple of hundred k I can make it but it is so hard - I can't at this time come up with the money to attach top actors and market it too. I can't get thru the fortress of angents and managers to the actors who'd make it a hit. I need to discover new ones. Its so funny and so original and I'm getting so old I need the only way seems to be to raise a very hard few hundred k to make the movie or it won't get made, at least in my own beautiful vision. So while I agree with you, I cant get there from here.
I feel for you Rich and I am sorry my duplicator is not working. I can't be of more help than writing this newsletter at the moment -- although I am working on some industry fixes/improvements but those are just baby steps. That said, I think any investor who is looking to take 90% of the profits is telling you they are not interested in treating you right --- and that is probably the first indication of such behavior that will be more habitual the longer you remain with them. That said, most movies never make profit so... there's that too.
Rich, I think that is the reason people are joining our studio. We really help them get their babies born. You did a good little pitch there, without giving the basic storyline or hooks, just your commitment and passion. Getting it made is one thing, getting it sold and out there is another.
Word of mouth is still happening in person. Social media is a very toxic place to share your views about a movie. There are places on social media where you will get yourself called a misogynist or a racist because you dislike a movie. Who wants to share their opinions on films if it's going to result in a social media pile-on and a series of calls to employers demanding that the -ist be fired?
We no longer live in a culture where it is safe to voice opinions disagreeing with the consensus view. You now jeopardize your livelihood and your reputation by voicing your taste in films. Who thinks it's worth becoming unemployed and homeless to dissent from a mob's views about a movie?
Hear you SRP, but also as someone who does speak his mind about things, I find that if you try to demonstrate your ability to see multiple perspectives, particularly the filmmakers' intent, people will still engage in a positive manner.
If you make a real solution film, you can bring both sides together, even if you treat the subjects of politics or religion. We made a political film using a cast and crew from the far-right all the way to the far-left, and somehow it all came together.